Posts by gordon d

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Hi Borgia,

If I have received any sort of "gift" it has obviously not been the one of eloquent communication... perhaps I need a brother named Aaron. Any other "tounges" that I speak have been developed, the good old-fashioned way. I do apologize if my statements are more confusing than clarifying.

As far as the diversity of gifts that some people receive, I do not feel that all are manifestations of a "Holy" spirit.... many are nothing more than manipulations, some are innate abilities, some are derived from sincere emotions but are (social) anomalies, and some are spirit enabled but not from God. The ability to discern the differences can differ from person to person or culture to culture but there does seem to be one common thread among those that are genuine.......They serve a purpose. I've mentioned frequently that it is foolish to try and place constraints of human logic, physics, and reason on a being that is the very definition of "Super"-Natural... His ways are not man's ways but his interaction with mankind does seem to stay within the confines of what is in our ability to digest and what is of some benefit to our role in his agenda.

A litmnus test for these may very well be an ingrained sensibilty to some people... but it also may require being "plugged-in" to spiritual matters.... either way, self examination can help to develop a discerning eye towards these abilities, in believer and even non-beleivers.

What were you doing in the period before your “epiphany”?What were the circumstance that lead you to be open to this experience?

It was more a case of what I did NOT do than anything that I "did"....

Basically, I quit trying to figure it out and completely submitted to the impossibilty of that venture. I did not get "moved" by the persuasive teachings of man... I did not immerse myself in one of the many translations of the bible... I and I did not try and "earn" God's favor. I shut up (I know.. hard to believe) and listened.... I isolated myself from distractions and started asking God for His help, on His terms.... CONSTANTLY! I didn't even ask for additional wisdom or insight... nothing specific... just admitted my total frustration, humility, need for, and desire of a realtionship with Him.... I let my conscience be my guide and quit doing the things that I felt were "wrong".

It makes me think of a Father watching his son trying to assemble a toy that is far beyond his grasp... The father may ask if the son wants help but when the son shows that he wants to do it by himself, the father sits back and watches. Some son might say, "No, thank you"... some say "No, I wanna do it!"....some may even turn their back on their father to keep the toy out of his reach. The son's failure is not a loss but a learning opportunity that goes far beyond the mechanics of putting toys together. Finally beaten by the challenge, the son may leave the toy on the floor, may give it to his father, with his arms crossed and pout, or may actually admit that he has a need for dad's help..... For me, after every other attempt, It was finally complete handing everything over (the toy, tools, instructions... everything!) and asking God to show me, that opened the door for him to come in.

The point is......does your egg contain any substance or is it just nicely painted?

Who know's? Maybe some people have a need for flopping around on the floor and mumbling jibberish... I don't really see the point.

The egg that I found contains more amazing things than I could ever imagine! Not cheesy stuff... REAL life changing gifts.... In addition to the undescribable joy and peace that literally envelopes you is the new sense of purpose and meaning that shape your every thought. This is not the place to catalog the actions that say what a great humanitarian I've become... Those that have seen what has happened may be encouraged by them or they may think that I am a fool... I have heard plenty of both.... everyone can get what they want out of it. It is not just about feeding the hungry, taking in the homeless, nurturing the sick... it is also about sharing the REAL Good news to anyone with ears to hear. If you want more specifics, just PM.

The acceptance of God's spirit, bonding with yours, may sound like a controlling "take over".... Nothing could be further from the truth. You do not become a puppet, you do not loose any of your free-will, you do not loose any of your independent thinking, you do not loose your rationality, and you do not loose your love of people........ You may loose you love of the things in this world that are destructive, or disgusting, but if you miss them, you can always get them back.... It is always up to you.

There are thousands of pages that can be written on this.... entire chapters that could focus on nothing more than Paul's letters to different groups of believers, but I think that I've said too much already, in this forum. I welcome any PM's

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Hey Asheron...

dam..just as the debate was heating up we hit he ultimate no-go zone

C'mon... Don't be such a wuss! I just gave you the easiest target ever!

What are you? some kinda' "GIRL" ..........There... that ought to do it!

P.S. I still gotta read your second to the last post but might be too tired tonight.....

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Hi Parakeet.... See.... plenty of popcorn left!

EVERYONE!!! Please re-read the post,,,

The "Attack" was directed ONLY at those people (that happened to be atheist) that were making fun of some newbie's search for knowledge. By voicing their opinion (in a coercive manner) about the practicality of the existence of God...... It struck me as sad that IF the same person had expressed an interest in alternative lifestyles, Wicca, or scientology, that no condemnation would have been voiced.... we're all way too sophisticated for that! But if someone mentions the name Jesus, you'd think they were commiting their lives to Hitler!

If anybody else was offended, that was probably due to my poor analogy ... or ....their own guilty conscience.

Hey Asheron... Please give me some time to really "read" your last post... It's far too deep, just to glance over.

27

Lightbulb Joke

by Asheron in

q: how many born-again christians does it take to change a light bulb?.

they have already seen the light.. q: how many agnostics does it take to change a light bulb?.

a: we can't know.

gordon d

A: One. He holds up the light bulb and the world spins around him.

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! thanks, I needed that!

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Hi Scully,

So on what, exactly do you base your "Pro-God" belief system? You haven't exactly explained your side of the argument during the course of this thread, even though you've required atheists to explain the basis for their belief system. Care to try? If it isn't anything to do with the "god" of the bible / New Testament, how do you regard yourself as a Christian? (I've been reviewing your posting history... )

It's not easy for me to communicate here, in writing... but if you really want to know, I'll give it a try... that's only fair.

I have some reservations about the Bible as we know it today. A history of it's origin and it's preservation cause more confusion than confirmation. I also do not believe that anything that we might generally consider as religion is a fundamental part of the intimate relationship that we can have with another being. Just as going through the ceremony of marriage does not automatically make you any "closer" to your spouse. However, I do believe that humans posses the abilty to "bond" with others on a level that science cannot explain. I feel that religions have been guilty of portraying an impression of God that is far removed from his true nature. I also believe that God has allowed this (and human suffering) for a reason and that he will not allow the current situation to last forever. But that is another topic, entirely.

I do believe in the biblical and historical accounts of Jesus.... also, that he was born into human form and ultimately acted as a sacrifice for the foundation of a new covenant between God and mankind. As ridiculous and barbaric as this originally sounded to me, the more searching that I did, the more "sense" that it made..... not to Western or even Eastern thinking but in equilibrium, at a higher level. I do believe that Christ is an entirely seperate entity than the one that "sent" him and has his own will and own thoughts. These views I can only support as being attained through spiritual enlightenment.... even an ability to discern man-made thoughts from God-inspired ones. I realize that this sounds like a form a mental illness but it does not manifest any of the traits of such a malidy (apart from the possibility of a transfixed delusionalism that has no accompanying psychoses... practically an unheard of condition) I do not believe that it is the place of anyone who has gained enlightenment to arbitrarily share knowledge with someone that is not given their own knowledge from spiritual powers. For example, translating of an understanding of a "true" Biblical parable to someone who has no real desire for the knowledge or no love for the will of the one who created it.

I am not saying that I've been given mystical powers? I am saying that an unexplainable change occured during my search for God. This change resulted to an immediate opening of my eyes to spiritual matters that had escaped me (no matter how much I had meditated on them in the past). Some people may refer to this as being born again, seeing the light, or becoming one with God. It's impossible to explain, there simply are no words for it. I would have NEVER believed it as something from God, at any point in my life... until it happened. The people that say one becomes a "new creature" are right..... just ask those that knew me before and after. It is not the same as the transformation of an achoholic in recovery, or a psych patient experiencing a breakthrough.... it is a complete changing of a persons very being. I fully realize that no one who has yet to experience this for themselves would ever understand it... but at the moment that it happens, you completely understand, and you have a peace that overwhelms you.

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Hi Satanus... A little off topic but what the hell...

Here's an abbreviated perspective of just one scientific fact.

Proponents of the Big Bang theory claim that it took place 10-20 billion years ago... as of yet, no center point has been theorized. The galaxy Abell 1835 IR 1916 is calculated at being over 13,000,000,000 light years from earth and nearly 22,000,000,000 light years from the farthest know galaxy 172 degrees by 168 degree opposingly oriented. Even if matter (as we consider stars to be made up of) could travel at the speed of light (their visible presence precludes that) it contradicts the very formation of these items being cast with any velocity necessary for being visible in their current positions... let alone that they are not still visible as hurling bits of matter but as homogenous, symetrical forms, in mature life cycles.

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Hi Tetra....

As exhausting and friutless as it may be, I'd love to participate in this discussion further. Perhaps it would merit a new thread.

Let me prepare myself, Will your position be emperical or philosophical?... original (first-hand) or plagiarized?

The statements supporting my (personal) views on creation were retaliatory... The original point was nothing more than promoting the open-mindedness among those who say, "There cannot be a God, because I have not seen one." and those that ask, "Could there really be a God."

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Hi Scully,

What was it you chastised me for about the Bible back at the beginning of the thread? Oh yeah:

Cherry picking the beliefs you like and spitting out the bits you don't, eh? If you're going to believe in a kinder, gentler, New Testament version of "god", you have to accept that deity in its entirety. Jesus was the guy who brought up Gehenna and burning in the lake of fire... do you have a problem with that? To me, it's mythology... but as a "believer", well, why would you reject that part of the one you claim to worship / serve / believe in? Doesn't it fit in with your nifty little Easter egg analogy?

Wait a second! I didn't offer ANY scriptures in support for my viewpoint that were Pro-God....If you're gonna take the Bible as a source for defending your atheistic position, then YOU have opened up Pandora's box... If you're gonna make assumption that I base my beleifs on the Bible, Please remember that even 2 Timothy 3:16 could NOT have been in support for the validity any of the Greek scriptures as they we're not canonized until 2 centuries later by a group of people with less than ideal credentials.... we don't even need to go into Ptolemic political practices and the rabbinical compilation of the Septuagint.

Would you mind posting a reference regarding Malsow being a "believer"? It's well established that he had a Jewish heritage - no mention of his being a real follower of that belief system though - and he is regarded as one of the founding fathers of modern Humanism. I'd like to see your evidence. (Again with the evidence! )

That was supposed to be a sarcastic observation of the latent similarities between psychological principles and (i'm making up words here) "internalized-induction-deitization"... more on that later....

For me, deism does contradict self-actualization / enlightenment / spiritual internalization.

Would you feel this way if the deity, somehow, became.... YOU? ............. NO! I'm NOT talking about ones transformation into a God-like creature.. I'm making a referrence to the theory of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of a person.

Uh-Oh!... Here we Go!!!!

Hey Asheron,..................are there any footprints or charred boards?

Hey Satanus.... I think that science's explanantion of the origin of all matter is more fanciful than divine intent... that's just me. I'll be happy to share my reasons if you're interested.

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Sorry guys.... had to step away from the computer and handle some business responsibilties....

Where were we?????

Borgia... thanks for the kind words.... I needed that!

I enjoyed your examples, they made a valid point They did have one thing in common, Tangible result based upon our understanding of cause and effect principals even including variables (beyond our control) that were still based upon "conventional" wisdom. Perhaps cultural analogies or parables further support the base of our understanding. But why is it necessary to think that something as inheirantly supernatural as a communion with a seperate entity has to fit into human logic. Isn't the history of man full of examples where seemingly unexplainable phenomena was given to outrageous theory or (in the epitome of human vanity) a personification.... Just look at the humanoid God's created to explain things like the sun and moon.

We are obviously far more technologically advanced than those people, yet we still base much of our philosophical viewpoints on theories that originated at the same time and level of human development..... Platonism itself, predates Roman mythology. There was a time that human flights of fancy were labeled as heracy if they differed from the outlandish ghost stories developed (by political and social leaders) in the name of Godly worship. Some of these flights of fancy were, human flight, microscopic organisms, and relationships between humans and spiritual creatures. Are we really so advanced today, that we have no need for objectivity before claiming that anything that does not fit into "OUR" understanding or sophisticated logic is some fabrication of an overactive imagination.

It might be justifyable if humans had the intellect to create something as simple as a squirrel.... what the heck, something as simple as an ant..OK...forget animals, how about a flower. Until that day comes, we might want to admit that we don't know everything. And IF these items were created by something with a conscience, maybe we would be wise to admit that such a being would not necessarily be confined to the laws that govern our understanding, on this one little planet, in the middle of nowhere.

145

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d in

jw
friends

which child is wiser?

while starting a hunt for easter eggs one child runs to a big tree and finds nothing then that childs brother says, go look under that rock i promise youll find one there!

the child throws down their basket and says, i give up!

gordon d

Asheron.... I seriously doubt that the guy from Three's Company discovered ultra-violet light... you might want to check you sources.

The point being, that prior to the scientific "Proof" of Ultra-violet light, the only basis for his hypothesis was found in the visible effects of this invisible phenomena. He chose to search for more proof and a greater understanding of something that was (as of yet) not proven!

It is not difficult for a person today to prove the existence os UV light, just as it would not be difficult for a being who had experienced life after death to prove their beliefs.... since that has not happened to any of us, we find ourselves in the same time frame as Ritter, proir to the establishment of proof. the only basis for our hypothesis is (again) in the visible effects of an invisible phenomena................. For most of us, the jury is still out!